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Damn I catching some flack for this! A quick introduction:
I’m part of a team organising a popular bike-meet in Lancashire, we’ve so far had positive input from the local authorities. All this changed today when I was asked to promote a wonderful new ‘safety’ scheme. Having asked for more details I was disgusted to see what is in effect more anti-biker legislation. Naturally I wasn’t going to sprinkle glitter on such a political turd, and now I’m copping the flack. They say forewarned is forearmed so here is a heads up, I suspect this information will be buried very shortly on our site so I’m passing the message on…the article has already been severely edited and I get the feeling the powers that be won’t be happy ’till it’s gone completely.
“That’s right, under a new scheme being piloted in Lancashire if you get your knee down you could be looking at a motoring offence conviction!
Under the new scheme you will be allowed a one-off safety course and a fine (similar to speeding offences at the moment) presumably with following offences being punished with points and fines.
We were originally asked to try and find a few ‘volunteers’ to test out this new scheme, so I asked for further information on it. Some of the highlights of the response are below:
“Our clients will be riders who are referred to us by the Police for inappropriate behaviours, i.e. wheelying in public, white line overtakes, knee-downs on the roundabout and this course will be offerred to them as an alternative to prosecution, (along the same lines as the Speed Awareness course).”
“This course is about changing beliefs and values, attitudes and behaviours and we have agreed with Constabulary that illegalities will prevent a rider taking part, so no small no. plates, excessively loud pipes/cans, and appropriate clothing must be worn, i.e. no shorts, sandals, t-shirts. If we set the standard right from the beginning, its the first step to modal shift.”
“This is not another piece of anti-biker legislation, it is an opportunity for an offender not to get prosecuted and to actually have a chance at learning something different to the usual skills based, Roadcraft approach of the past.””
“Personally I think this kind of money would be better spent on training car drivers how to drive with regard to bikers..make them do a CBT as part of their test. (De ja vu there I think lol)
There’s a thin person inside me screaming to get out…but I can usually shut the bitch up with chocolate!
I think its aimed more at those that prat about on roundabouts doing it, they would be hard pressed to get a conviction against someone using kneedowns on normal bends as part of their “riding style” cos they would have to prove he/she was endangering other road users.
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
Sorry, i dont see it as anti biker to be honest. Lets face it…biking is a dangerous pasttime. Everyone knows it, if you get your knee down on the road you are making it more dangerous. That danger is acceptable to the person riding but unacceptable to the police. Surely all they are trying to do is educate the biker as to the risks involved. Speaking for myself I have never felt it wise to get my knee down on public roads, what with diesel spills, cow shit, gravel etc Its just too risky. Knee down, unless you are a racer is just for show, Mike Hailwood never got his knee down, Dave Jefferies was once quoted as saying he never got his down when out riding on the roads (unless in a road race) and Ian Lougher , multi TT winner has never done it either even when racing. A mate of mine is brilliant at it but cant understand why loads of people ride round the outside of him on a track day.
Maybe im missing the point here but if, on one of the three occasions I have been nicked for speeding, id been offered the choice to attend a speed awareness course or had another 3 points on my licence id have jumped at the chance. I was speeding , I was in the wrong and they did me…fair cop, I cant complain.
Basically we are all big boys and girls…if you want to do stuff then thats fair enough..each to their own. If the coppers are willing to let you off three points and try and give you some education at the same time then surely thats a bonus ??
I agree with Gix though..its difficult to get a conviction for kneedown..but looking at the quote it looks as though that was just thrown in with a load of other offences, maybe it shouldnt be scrutinised too heavily.
“he passed me that fast he was suckin rabbits out the hedges”
I disagree that it makes it more dangerous though Richy, if you have the bike leant right over then the danger is already there, shifting your weight slightly and sticking knee out doesn’t neccessarily make it more dangerous, what will it be next? Prosecuting for leaning bike too far?
Regardless of whether I intend to put my knee to tarmac on bends, I still shift my rear over and use my weight to advantage to help me get round bend….and yes sometimes I stick my knee out, when it touches down I know I am close to limit, so sometimes a rider can use it to benefit, are they gonna start prosecuting for moving around the bike?
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
I have no problem with people doing what they like on their bikes wheelies , stoppies, burn outs, kneedown whatever. As long as they dont hurt anyone else and are willing to accept the consequences.
Let me ask you this question..do you get your knee down when the roads are wet ? The answer I presume is no..because you know that the limit is nowhere near to the point where your knee touches the ground.
By your own admission you are riding ‘close to the limit’ when you get your knee down. But the coppers dont like people riding close to the limit and from their point of view and probably as a result of what they have witnessed i dont blame them. So if they are willing to make you attend a course rather than nick you (if they can prove it) then isnt that a good thing ?
You base the decision that you are ‘close to the limit’ on the road ahead being of a certain grippiness no obstructions etc. then what happens if your assumption about the road is wrong and some gravel has washed in to the road after the recent heavy rain (yes this is from personal experience a couple of weeks ago) then you have no margin for error and you may ..or may not crash. That decision is yours..but by the same token you can understand why the coppers would rather deter you than have to waste time clearing up the mess afterwards.
Each to their own.
“he passed me that fast he was suckin rabbits out the hedges”
quote:
Originally posted by gixerchicI disagree that it makes it more dangerous though Richy, if you have the bike leant right over then the danger is already there, shifting your weight slightly and sticking knee out doesn’t neccessarily make it more dangerous, what will it be next? Prosecuting for leaning bike too far?
Regardless of whether I intend to put my knee to tarmac on bends, I still shift my rear over and use my weight to advantage to help me get round bend….and yes sometimes I stick my knee out, when it touches down I know I am close to limit, so sometimes a rider can use it to benefit, are they gonna start prosecuting for moving around the bike?This was my bone of contention. Every biker shifts their weight on corners. So what constitutes ‘knee down’ riding? What if you have longer than average legs? as you shift your weight your knee gets closer to the ground. Over 12 years of riding I’ve learnt that shifting my weight stabilises the lean into a corner, enabling the rider to maintain a more constant speed, which is damn useful if you have a car sat on your rear hoop.
The logical conclusion to this scheme is that police will be using their famous powers of ‘discretion’ as to how far you can lean your bike over.
As for saying it is dangerous due to the condition of the roads, surely that issue would be better addressed by improving the quality of the roads. Diesel will still throw you regardless of how far you are leant over so that is surely a moot point.
The fact is that it is not an arrestable offence at the moment because every biker knows that to corner efficiently you must shift your weight, giving the police farce the power to stop you at any corner because they think that this weight shifting is dangerous is just a joke, especially because because the majority of the police force have no idea about riding a bike so they could perceive any amount of lean as an arrestable offence.
Knee-down is not ‘just for show’ it is a genuine riding style that endangers no-one IF the rider is competent and surely that’s what having a full license is supposed to reflect? To award penalty points for using your weight and/or build to succesfully navigate a corner is anti-biker.
And let’s not focus just on the knee-down part here, what happens if you pull away from the lights on a new bike and the front wheel leaves the ground by 1 centimetre. Does that count as a wheelie? How about a real emergency stop (not one of those half-arsed test ones) when the back wheel leaves the deck by a centimetre? Does that deserve 3 points for being a stoppie?
Allow me to raise a quick point in summation. What constitutes knee-down riding? Is it only when a knee slider makes contact with the ground? How about 1 inch above the surface of the road? 5 millimetres above the ground? Does that take into account the fact that a 6’6 rider will be closer to the ground with his knee at the same angle of lean as a 5’9 rider? or will it be the angle of lean on the bike itself? Which bike model will that be assessed upon? This scheme will surely just give the police another excuse to pull bikers on a whim.
Richy, it is my choice if I want to stick my knee out, if it touches down I know I am close to limit…it aids as a warning and an indicator of how far over the bike has to go before it it reaches its limit, and in all honesty, I doubt I could ever reach that limit…
I would much rather see the police prosecuting real dangerous road users such as mobile phone users etc, then they wouldn’t be clearing up as many of us any way….
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
quote:
You base the decision that you are ‘close to the limit’ on the road ahead being of a certain grippiness no obstructions etc. then what happens if your assumption about the road is wrong and some gravel has washed in to the road after the recent heavy rainIts called using judgement, something that the nanny state seems to want to take away from us.
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
Would also like to make a point about overtaking on solid white lines. By DfTs own admission they are put there with the less than average performance car in mind, and by the fact that few convictions of cases of bikers going to court for overtaking on white lines have been successful. Lets face it, a bike can overtake alot quicker and safer than a car, and already a few jury’s have substantiated this point.
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
I can see the “danger argument” but let me ask this…………
When are the police going to use an already existing law to prosecute car drivers on mobiles on a regular basis,or driving with one arm out the window(not in proper control,surely),driving with a hand on the gear stick instead of both firmly planted on the wheel,smoking while driving………………..the list goes on.
As bikers we always seem to get the shitty end of the stick and its about time that the authorities pulled they,re heads out of they,re arses and looked at the real issues here not just tried to make a quick buck.
Rich is right as far as the “if you get caught its no good moaning” but we are all in danger of becoming scapegoats in order that the government satisfy the small minority( but very loud ).FASTER PUSSYCAT,FASTER
GOT ME SOME MORE CUBES
So we all agree the roads are shit (and they are not going to change)..then it makes sense not to ride ‘close to the limit’ on them doesnt it ?
What is a moot point is trying to define what kneedown is (although it seems self-explanatory to me) because more than likely the police will be able to do you for speeding or reckless driving or not being in control of your vehicle, whatever they feel like..it is up the policeman who stops you..and that my friend..you can do f*** all about. And i will say again..if he’s prepared to make you attend a course than give you 3 points then I for one say fantastic.
I can only go by whats happened to me…But I have never been hassled by the police when i didnt deserve it… I have been stopped for wearing a black visor and because I had a clear one with me and the police used their ‘discretion’ they did nothing. And if you do get one who is intent on making your life a misery and wont use his ‘discretion’ then thats a shame but you’ll have to put up with it….tough but thats the way it is.
All this..”the police are picking on me it isnt fair” makes me laugh.. biking is all about taking risks..having a good time ..feeling free..being rebellious …not about gaining acceptance from the police..or running off crying when they are nasty to us. I have never been nicked when I didnt deserve it and I have been let off sometimes when I shouldnt have been.
“he passed me that fast he was suckin rabbits out the hedges”
You dont need to be breaking the speed limit to lean the bike, so being done for speeding aint an issue in all cases.
As for not being in control, that is not an issue either, unless you have a slider in your hand and its on the road, if you lean the bike over far enough to get kneedown, but you tuck knee in, are you in less control?
LOVE IS GIVING SOMEONE THE ABILITY TO DESTROY YOU, THEN TRUSTING THEM NOT TO.Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, VODKA in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming…….WOO HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!
Richy, it is not about gaining acceptance from the police, it is about maintaining our personal freedoms in an area that becomes more and more endangered by unjust legislation everyday.
You would think that ‘knee-down’ riding is fairly clear cut, but let me ask you then if everyone was to take to riding with their knee 1 cm above the surface of the road the police would be content to let them go about their business.
As for not being able to do anything about it, we can. We can complain and make our voices heard. The attitude of ‘we can’t do anything, so lets sit with our thumbs up our arses and hope the problem goes away’ is the reason they can get away with this sort of nonsense. Inevitably these people are usually the first to cry out when they lose their license to the same laws they didn’t do anything about.
The system needs to be changed, but it won’t be while the public continue to bury their heads in the sand.
“Knee-down is not ‘just for show’ it is a genuine riding style that endangers no-one IF the rider is competent and surely that’s what having a full license is supposed to reflect?”
Ok..lets ask the forum…
Lets assume the term kneedown means knee is contact with groud via a slider.
1. Do you agree that getting your kneedown is a genuine riding style for the road.
2. If own a bike (or did own a bike) that was capable to do it..would/do you regularly get you kneedown when you go for a ride.
3. If the answer to 2 is no then why ?
4. On a ride..how many times have you encountered someone riding with their kneedown.
5. Of the times you encountered them what percentage of these people were these people were speeding ?
6. Does owning a full bike licence mean you are competent to get your knee down.
7. Do you feel there is a certain maschismo/bravado associated with getting your kneedown ?
8. Are riders at …more/less/the same risk of coming off if they ride with their kneedown on public roads.
9. Do you think it is safer to do such things on closed roads such as a race track ?“he passed me that fast he was suckin rabbits out the hedges”
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